One of the fun things about having your own podcast is meeting great people around the world. Irina Slav is one of those energy industry thought leaders of those from Bulgaria. We sit down to talk about one of her articles on hydrogen and the great things we could use right now. Another affordable renewable source of energy. Well, I learned about some real problems with hydrogen, and some of the real benefits.
As we have in the past, we bring in other topics, and we really appreciate Irina’s frankness. Please connect with Irina on Substack and LinkedIn. Thank you Irina for stopping by the ENB podcast.
Please follow Irina Slav on Oilprice.com and her newsletter on Substack here.
Below is an automated transcript, and we disavow any mistakes unless it makes us funnier, or seem smarter. Enjoy.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:00:03] Hey, good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Energy Newsbeat podcast. My name is Stu Turley, President, and CEO of the Sandstone Group. And I’ve got an exciting interview for you today. We’ve got Irene Slav in Bulgaria, and I am a huge fan. My wife is laughed about having all of her articles on the screen and everything else. And Irina is an industry expert extraordinaire from Bulgaria, and she is an author and an author for oilprice.com. And also, Irene Slav is on Substack. We’ll have all the information in the show notes, so you can subscribe to everything she does. Welcome, Irena. We are so glad to have you here.
Irina Slav, [00:00:58] Hi, it’s great to be here still. Can I ask,
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:01:01] you know, how’s the weather? First, Bulgaria? How are you doing in there in the weather? How’s everything going?
Irina Slav, [00:01:09] It’s been good. It’s sunny, though. It’s cold, but we’ve been doing fine.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:01:16] Well, good. I’m out here in Oklahoma, and I’ve got three inches of ice across everything, and I can’t get out of my area here. So I’m trapped like a rat here.
Irina Slav, [00:01:27] So, oh, you’re not used to ice and snow?
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:01:32] No. In fact, the drivers in Oklahoma are horrible on ice and snow, so it’s best to stay home for our listeners. We have two action-packed topics. Irina, on February eight, wrote one of the best articles I’ve read on green hydrogen and the differences in that. And then the second topic we’re going to have don’t count on OPEC to bring oil prices down. This was published on the oil price. RT.com So arena. Excellent article. I learned that there’s a nirvana of hydrogen as I’m in hydrogen fan, but I did not know about some of the things in here. Everybody’s touting hydrogen. There’s green, and there’s blue. There’s a rainbow of colors.
Irina Slav, [00:02:28] Oh yeah. Yeah, it’s a real rainbow. Yeah.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:02:32] Could you let us know and let our listeners know what the rainbow is? You know, the green, blue fur.
Irina Slav, [00:02:39] I think they’ve been adding colors, but basically, yeah, yeah. The darker colors. Gray hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Brown hydrogen comes from coal gasification of coal and the ultimate goal is green hydrogen that’s produced by electrolysis in water using wind or solar power. And I think yellow was the kind that uses nuclear power to produce hydrogen.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:03:15] Wow. This is almost like having you almost need a chart, you know, like, you know, the radio, you know, any, anyway we’ve got to put a chart out.
Irina Slav, [00:03:24] I know, I know. Yeah.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:03:25] And I love when people start throwing around the color scheme, and they don’t get it right, and it’s easy to do on that. Now in your article, you’ve been covering hydrogen for years and you bring forward some of the good things about hydrogen and the bad things. What are your thoughts on the good things of hydrogen?
Irina Slav, [00:03:49] Well, it’s abundant. It’s well, and it’s relatively easy to produce in that it’s straightforward. These are established processes, and it’s very versatile with regard to use, as it could be used for a lot of things. Production of fertilizers. I see its use, and I’m not an expert and not a chemist. So you know, I can’t speak technically. I say it’s used in the treatment of metals, right? And of course, it can be used as fuel for electricity production.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:04:27] Very, very versatile and especially with natural gas prices. If they go up using it for fertilizer, helping natural gas, take that away because we’ve now got a food shortage facing the world because of natural gas shortages. So that would help. But in the battery aspect of it, batteries are really got some problems, and they got some technology ways to go so everybody can have cars and all this other stuff. So that would be a great replacement for it as well.
Irina Slav, [00:04:58] I mean, yeah, fuel cell cars are great, they’re clean, and they get fueled much faster than battery electric vehicles.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:05:09] And, you know, the whole goal is to have zero carbon output. Yeah. You know, the world needs carbon anyway for plants. So, yeah, so, but we’re going to leave that discussion out of this, you know, just to say, yeah, we need to go to all of this. But the big thing that you brought up was water. Tell us about Water Man. I did not know of the one to nine ratios. And then even down later in your article, you talk about it, and it goes from 18 tons to one ton. Can you explain? I mean, if it if there’s a problem with it, can you explain a little bit about your friend in the water?
Irina Slav, [00:05:51] Oh, it’s not really a problem. It’s a simple question of inputs and outputs. OK. So to produce a lot of hydrogen, you need a lot of water to break it down into hydrogen and oxygen. Right? And some of it gets lost. It’s not 100 percent. Input equals 100 percent output. And what to me is quite serious. An issue is a fact that you can just use any water. It needs to be purified, right? So you need additional water. You can’t know. Know now.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:06:36] OK.
Irina Slav, [00:06:38] So yeah, that’s why it’s. It’s quite complex. You need if we’re talking about green hydrogen, this is what we’re talking about, the way I see it, and the people I talked to when I was researching my first article on the problems with green hydrogen. Now you need to account for the location of your solar farm that will power the electrolysis. And then you have to have water nearby.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:07:12] Right. And that doesn’t normally happen in big.
Irina Slav, [00:07:16] So that limits the choice of locations. Yes, there are the installations.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:07:22] You had one with Shell as an example in China. That was a great example of where to put it in there, where the biggest electric lasers in the world with a capacity of 20 megawatts and China’s high. I think, yeah, I can’t pronounce anything, so people make
Irina Slav, [00:07:42] sure it’s correct.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:07:43] But you know, being from Texas and Oklahoma, I get laughed at a lot. So that one’s going to be green because of hydro, I mean, because of wind. And it seemed like it had lots of water. So that’s a great thing for hydro is fine.
Irina Slav, [00:08:01] Yeah. If you can find the right location, yes.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:08:06] Now commercially viable. Water is expensive and a real problem around the world, so everybody running around doing the happy hydrogen dance is not going to be the end-all solution. It’s going to be a good solution. And Saudi Arabia has announced they’re I like Saudi Arabia from the standpoint that they are taking advantage of their oil and gas, but yet they’ve announced some huge hydrogen plans for them.
Irina Slav, [00:08:35] Absolutely.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:08:36] Yeah, that that is good energy planning and
Irina Slav, [00:08:40] they are going in the right direction. Yes. Yes, they’re taking advantage of the oil demand current oil demand, and they are planning to make good use of the oil money. Hopefully, things can always change. But I think that going in the right direction, yes, and developing them metals as well, metals and minerals, they have quite a bit of that too.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:09:03] and I respect that when you talk about an energy leader, there are others that are not energy leaders, and I cannot say that the United States is an energy leader. I will even talk about our pipelines and everything else on other podcasts because the administration is killing pipelines except when they want to kill the Nord Stream two, so pipelines in the U.S. are being killed. Except they don’t want the Nord Stream two will leave that alone
Irina Slav, [00:09:36] for they don’t like pipelines. It’s it’s. Blatantly obvious, yeah, they don’t like pipelines,
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:09:44] and anyway, the raw materials with minerals and everything else. Everybody wants to go to an ivy car, but the minerals are a real problem. Do you see any? Because everybody wants in every car or an electric vehicle car now? We don’t have enough precious resources to do it. So hydrogen batteries could help fix that problem? Or are there still big, big amounts of rare earth minerals and order needed in order to do hydrogen?
Irina Slav, [00:10:23] Well, no, no hydrogen can’t help fix this problem, because if we’re talking about green hydrogen, it relies on renewable energy sources on solar and wind to build solar and wind installations. You, Neal, and you need metals and minerals. And should I talk about the prices of metals? Yes.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:10:49] Yes.
Irina Slav, [00:10:51] Well, this just in the in the past couple of days, of course, the latest price spike has to do with the geopolitics with Ukraine, but that’s just like the last drop because metals prices have been going up for months now. With all the forecasts about Ely’s and generation capacity from wind and solar, it’s like forecasters are in a race who will make the bold prediction of gigawatts upon gigawatts of wind and gigawatts on gigawatts of solar and millions of lives. All this needs copper. It needs steel, and it needs aluminum, it needs nickel and lithium, and cobalt. And of course, so and incidentally, because of higher energy prices, including coal and gas polysilicon. I just read today that polysilicon prices at the highest since 20 2011. Wow. Yes. The myth about increasingly cheap solar and the wind is being busted right now. Nobody seems to have accounted for days. Everybody seems to think that prices cannot go up. There will be enough of everything we need right now to make solar panels and wind turbines. But this is not the case.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:12:38] Well, we’re in a no-win situation, it seems like. Yeah, yeah. And so, the best path to get to carbon net-zero is nuclear and natural gas. And then, as technology evolves, roll to some of the others. Is that fair? Is that what I’ve read in some of your things or what are your thoughts on that?
Irina Slav, [00:13:02] That’s one possibility. Yeah, but there is a lot of opposition to nuclear. And then we must remember, even if we leave aside the fear of of an accident and radiation, even if we forget about this. Nuclear is quite expensive upfront. And that makes the energy not that cheap. Although I hear that a lot of research is being done in new kinds of reactors, that’s modular reactors that are not as expensive. So there’s not so, yeah, nuclear. There is I think it’s an indispensable part of the energy transition, if we’re really so set on becoming a net zero-emitting civilization in the next world, what’s it now? Not even 30 years. Yeah. All right. And. I, yes, gas would also be part of it, it has to be part of it. But of course, environmental organizations would. Some of them would insist on carbon capture and storage, and others are against it because they say it’s inefficient and expensive in any way. The captured carbon is being used to produce more oil, so there’s no making some people happy, really. So you can never make everybody happy. There will always be an opposition to the of that, including against solar farms.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:14:36] Yes. Now in the United States, we’re facing a huge problem with just gasoline at the pump and gasoline at the pump because our refineries are the cost for oil is going up. We’re seeing some huge problems this summer when demand for gasoline comes up. So we’re going to see the highest prices, you know, in the United States, it was 2014 since we saw $100 oil. We’re going to see some really, really high prices of gasoline. How is that in Europe with the energy problems in Europe, are you going to in Bulgaria or any other?
Irina Slav, [00:15:12] Oh yeah, prices are going up. In fact, they’re almost as high as they were in 2014. Wow. Yeah. And what is it going up? How much more
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:15:27] per liter
Irina Slav, [00:15:28] we pay believes the U.S. needs $2.6. So it’s held that in euros, what is it about? One point eighteen euros per liter.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:15:43] OK, you’re very funny when you’re doing that, it is Friday afternoon in Bulgaria. You have had a tough week because I’ve read a lot of your articles coming out this week and you’re doing some great math.
Irina Slav, [00:15:56] So thank you. It’s really complex math. Yeah. And yeah, I mean,
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:16:01] leaders bureau
Irina Slav, [00:16:03] dividing by two. Yeah, yeah.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:16:05] Yeah, dividing by. I can’t do that anyway. And say as we talk, you know, the energy crisis affects everything we talked about ammonia and fertilizer. Natural gas, food increase. Seems like energy is the core of inflation coming around the corner. Oh yes. Yes. And so in inflation, the poor get poorer, and the rich get richer. So the one thing I did read, I think that yesterday that Biden said on the evil sanctions that he’s going to do on Russia is leaving energy out. And so Russia is getting huge money from that. It’s like. Sanctions are useless to Putin on that
Irina Slav, [00:16:58] now, sanctions are useless, the period, I mean, we’ve seen it with Iran, we’ve seen it with Venezuela. They don’t exactly work. They don’t affect regime change. They just make the regular people suffer. But we have the ironic, the ironic aspect with the Russian sanctions that nobody dares to sanction Russia’s oil and gas exports. Yes, all these sanctions Nord Stream two. It’s not even operating. So what? What are you doing? Just in Pakistan
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:17:35] this week, arena announced that the leader, the Prime Minister or Prime Minister of Pakistan flew to Moscow, and he’s looking to get a pipeline built, but he has to contract with a contractor that won’t be sanctioned. And China is stepping forward for that because China is backing Russia. They don’t care about sanctions. So all of a sudden, you have everybody sidestepping sanctions. And like you, you just said, everybody’s saying, Well, what about all the oil from Iran? They’ve been selling to the Chinese, and they’ve got the contract. They have sidestepped sanctions for years. They don’t care about the nuclear deal. I mean, it’s like.
Irina Slav, [00:18:28] Anyway, it would be better for the people in Iran if they they do ink deals deal. So, you know, sanctions get can get lifted and people maybe people with would leave a little bit better.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:18:42] That is a good reason to lift the sanctions.
Irina Slav, [00:18:45] Oh yes. Yes, that’s the big reason. I don’t really like sanctions as a way of teaching a country a lesson.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:18:54] It’s like the sanctions on Russia. Russia and China or Russia from the U.S. Biden says he’s going to sanction the rich billionaires. I looked at the billionaires, and one lost 42 percent of his wealth. One last
Irina Slav, [00:19:12] thing here?
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:19:13] Yeah. One last. Twenty-seven. OK. You did some fabulous math just a minute ago. But being from Texas, I can do some math. If you’re a billionaire and you are 42 percent of your money. You’re still
Irina Slav, [00:19:28] pretty.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:19:32] Anyway, so sanctions don’t work. No, no. OK, now that we’re solving all of the world’s problems in Iran, I appreciate your candor on this. What about OPEC? Because President Biden has been begging rather in a U.S. problem. He has squashed the U.S. shale. And, you know, drilling here is really tough. And he’s begging OPEC for more supply. But OPEC is in your article this morning. Give us your opinion on OPEC coming to the rescue.
Irina Slav, [00:20:13] Well, it’s not now. I’m sorry, I’m being blunt, but I don’t see any other way because things are so obvious. As you said, Biden has been pleading with OPEC’s since last year, and when the bleeding didn’t work, he tried. Insisting, but he didn’t really have any leverage against Open to force them to do it. And I remember. Like, like many others who are watching this industry and writing about it, initially, I was confused. Why not go to your own oil industry and ask them to boost production? Now, of course, there’s the question of different grades of oil. Of course, U.S. refineries can work on light oil only. But leaving this aside, let’s remember that Biden won the elections with an energy transition agenda and markedly anti-oil agenda. So from this perspective, it would have been unreasonable illogical for him to suddenly embrace U.S. oil. But it doesn’t help that he reached out to opaque. Yeah, he’s still asking for oil. Yeah.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:21:41] And COP26 and his infrastructure bill included natural gas and nuclear as now renewables. So, boy, we never. Yeah, I mean, we’re talking hypocrisy going on here. And it’s just not Biden is. Everybody has got hypocrisy. And I’m frustrated with hypocrisy. I love your candor. What you see with that arena is what you get. When are you running for president of the United States?
Irina Slav, [00:22:19] I don’t think this will be such a good idea.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:22:25] Excuse me. Wait. You would need to be the Minister of energy because you like whatever kind of energy. And I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but everything I read, you don’t. You’re not casting rocks at solar or energy or hydrogen. You’re trying up to. Yeah. You if you use the best energy possible. Isn’t that your slogan?
Irina Slav, [00:22:46] Yeah, but be practical about it, realistic about it, rather than ideological about it.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:22:53] OK. If you run for office in Bulgaria, will your husband be all mad at you now, or is he is really frustrated with all that, right?
Irina Slav, [00:23:01] I wouldn’t want to run for office now. You don’t just get to be a politician that easily now. Oh, I’m not. I’m not doing this to myself. No.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:23:11] Well, I’ll tell you, I just want to let you know that your opinions were so well received with our listeners and everything else. I just can’t even begin to tell you how much I thank you for your time on a Friday afternoon in Bulgaria.
Irina Slav, [00:23:27] No, it’s really my pleasure. I think we need to talk about these things. We need to think about them more rather than just swallow what we are being told by official officials, ministers and others. Yeah, because I’ve heard the same, the same things here, how where we are now going to build a battery plant in Bulgaria. Mm-Hmm. To produce energy storage installations. And then we’ll build a lot of wind and a lot of solar will create thousands of jobs. Of course, always with the jobs and we’ll have a much cleaner economy. It’s all the usual so-called arguments, which are not exactly arguments. Their talking points right now with very little substance behind them. So I think talking about renewable energy, the energy transition and all this is really critical at this point in hopes that more people will start to question the dominant narrative and ask for real answers what we would have to sacrifice. Mm-Hmm. And how much it will cost
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:24:46] you as a side note. I’ve got my research team working on a bunch of stuff on the increase of coal, and it appears that there’s a strong relationship of countries that have high renewable wind and solar and that they’ve printed money. There is a high relationship to high inflation rates, and so we’re getting the correlation points in the same statistics into the report. And so renewable and inflation rates go hand in hand, is what we are seeing. So I mean, the countries with fewer renewables or, excuse me, the right kind of renewables like hydro and geothermal seem to have the lesser inflation rates. So we got to back that up with data before I just make a blanket statement on that.
Irina Slav, [00:25:45] That’s very interesting, but it makes sense. Yeah.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:25:48] And but I don’t want to just go out therein, and I like being ethical. I mean, you know, my wife keeps me ethical, but I on that note, there is such a strong relationship between a trend between renewables and inflation, and then you can take it. One step further is the difference between the rich and the poor. So from a generic statement, the more you go renewables, the poorer your population goes. And I’m trying to back into that theory because that’s really bad.
Irina Slav, [00:26:33] So then I said, Let’s take Germany. I’m sorry. I kind of veered off course. You wanted to talk about open, but let’s just talk about this and then go back to the book, Is that OK?
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:26:43] Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Irina Slav, [00:26:46] So let’s take Germany. Germany pays the most expensive electricity in Europe. Yes, but Germany is also the biggest European economy, right? And it has a high standard of living. And then the pandemic came the gas crunch game, and suddenly people are freaking out that they may not be able to pay their electricity bills. Right. So there is there is a lot of it in what you said and also that what what I think is very interesting that with all the all these reports that wind and solar are getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and cheaper, then why are Germans and other Europeans? I know we pay a surcharge for renewable energy. Right? So what’s that about? They say it’s about encouraging more renewables, but we would encourage them without a surcharge if they’re sold cheap,
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:27:50] but wouldn’t tax credits. Health instead of the surcharge, why don’t you give the companies tax credits?
Irina Slav, [00:27:59] Maybe they do have on reserves these things that maybe they do. But what I did research is what I need in order to put solar panels on the roof of my house, right? First of all, they’re very expensive, but they’re supposed to pay off a then I would need to wait about somewhere between a few months and a year to have it all certified and legalized with the authorities. And only then, yes, they become operational. I didn’t. I didn’t see anything about government incentives, but I’m sure they there because we have incentives for electric cars. But I’m not sure if it’s worth it. Unless the incentive is how the price of the installation, right, which is the thing for our needs, it was about $10000.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:29:01] Excuse me.
Irina Slav, [00:29:02] It was about $10000, I think
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:29:05] so only the rich can afford solar.
Irina Slav, [00:29:08] Or people who could take a loan, a bank loan, and then they sell back to the trades and they get some income. But we, as far as I remember for some reason, would have to pay. An annual fee for something I didn’t really understand. Well, that was all about using solar power. Yeah, it’s needlessly complicated, right? Not well, not well explained, so I said no way getting a backup generator, and that’s it. A diesel generator, yeah,
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:29:48] as I can afford it, I’m going off the grid. I’m sorry, I’m I’ve got a big hydro dam just down the road, so my electric is very cheap here in Oklahoma. But Dallas, even if the if we do sanction or have a problem, I think Putin the other day said he was going to attack the U.S. with cyber and we have a real problem with cyber.
Irina Slav, [00:30:20] And sorry,
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:30:22] I’m sorry for going back that way, but it is just stupid. I’m I’m sorry, I’m going off on a whole nother one. We had the Colonial Pipeline hack. Yeah, yeah. We have not done anything for security, so people are not insulated from water in the U.S. because if you cut it out, it’d be like a zombie apocalypse around here with no power.
Irina Slav, [00:30:47] That’s a whole other can of worms. Yes. Cyber security is yes. Thanks for mentioning that has to be included in the energy transition equation, too, because of all the electronics. Yes. In electric cars and in the systems that connect solar farms to the grid and all this, it’s really it’s a potential mess if we don’t do it right?
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:31:18] No. In fact, I support a lot of websites and a lot of customers and the hosting provider that I use got hacked. And so what happened was all of my websites got hacked by international people and the hacking got into everybody’s backups. So the hosting provider had backups for a long time, and I was frustrated because my clients were getting very frustrated because I kept putting backups back in, but they were infected. So this was in six months ago. So it was not they. I’m a small guy, but boy, they even got the big hosting outfit enough. And boy, that hosting outfit wanted to keep it quiet. So I I do like
Irina Slav, [00:32:14] to report these things, you
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:32:16] know, and they finally sent me a note and said, Please keep it quiet. And by the way, you know, all of my clients got nailed, but they got it because they went to the big boards. You know, they went to the big server houses in order to hack. So even the little business man can be impacted. Buy all this off, yet escalate that over to the Colonial Pipeline example last year, it caused gasoline prices to go through the roof.
Irina Slav, [00:32:46] Yeah, because people were stocking up in a frenzy.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:32:49] Yeah. And so the zombie apocalypse does not need to happen in order to have the results of the zombie apocalypse.
Irina Slav, [00:32:57] Yeah, maybe that’s better. We don’t really need flesh eating zombies on top of everything else.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:33:03] No, but we do have politicians and I’m going to put politicians in there with the zombies. So I mean, they’re in the same category as far as my I have a very low opinion of politicians.
Irina Slav, [00:33:16] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so do I.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:33:19] OK?
Irina Slav, [00:33:20] They’re not really doing their jobs very well.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:33:22] So, no, but arena, thank you so much. This entertaining conversation and I hope you
Irina Slav, [00:33:29] have a
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:33:30] fabulous weekend, and I hope to have you back again because my listeners love hearing you and they hate my jokes. And I’m just kidding. They love my jokes.
Irina Slav, [00:33:41] Of course, dat.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:33:43] they love your candor. So thank you very much for you
Irina Slav, [00:33:46] to hear it. It was a pleasure, Steve. Thanks for having me.
Stu Turley, CEO, Sandstone Group [00:33:50] Thank you.
