I love my job. Talking with executives, authors, and industry leaders about all types of energy is extremely cool. Douglas Sandridge, SVP of Fulcrum Energy Capital Funds and the Executive Director for Oil & Gas Executives for Nuclear, came by the podcast.
His substack article: Oil & Gas Executives Believe that Common Sense Energy Policies Must Include a Greater Role for Nuclear Energy caught my eye and it was fantastic. People seem to think a competitive issue exists between the nuclear and oil and gas markets. He is right, and in fact, everyone from the oil and gas field that I have talked to loves nuclear.
Everyone in the energy space, from the linemen, rig workers, nuclear plant operators, and Union Construction folks, wants to deliver the lowest kWh to the consumers. In fact, it was Chris Wright, CEO of Liberty Energy, who influenced the Energy News Beat podcast formula. I met Chris and loved his message of elevating humanity from poverty through low-cost, sustainable energy. Sustainability includes not printing money and impacting the environment in the least amount possible. Chris is an energy thought leader, humanitarian, and committed to providing low-cost energy with the least impact on the environment.
The Oil & Gas Executives for Nuclear has over one hundred oil and gas executives who signed the declaration, and I turned mine in for the Sandstone Group.
Check out the Oil &Gas Executives for Nuclear HERE: https://executives4nuclear.com/
Connect and follow Doug on his LinkedIn HERE: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-c-sandridge-63996312/
Thank you, Doug, for your industry leadership and for stopping by the podcast. I am looking forward to our future podcast with Chris Wright to talk about Nuclear and its implementation in the oil field. I am also jealous that you got to hang with Robert Bryce on his new movie. – Stu
Highlights of the Podcast
02:50 – Douglas C. Sandridge’s frustration with the oil and gas industry’s perception challenges Michael Bloomberg’s claim on renewable energy feasibility, deeming it unrealistic.
05:31 – Emphasizes fossil fuels’ role in manufacturing, concerns about increased usage, and the importance of nuclear energy as a baseline—positive mention of a nuclear facility in the UAE.
09:33 – Douglas C. Sandridge’s journey into nuclear advocacy, creating a declaration supported by over 100 oil and gas executives favoring nuclear energy.
18:04 – Chris Wright’s impact on low-cost energy and humanitarian efforts credits major oil companies for advancing research and technology.
22:27 – Discussion on changing perceptions in the energy industry, growing interest among the younger generation, and evolving energy education at the University of Oklahoma.
26:50 – Examples of shifting perspectives in the energy industry, emphasizing the transformative power of education, citing Michael Shellenberger’s associate Benny Peiser’s transition.
29:37 – Discussion on Meredith Angwin’s book “Shorting the Grid” and its insights into the intricacies of the energy grid, emphasizing the importance for energy policymakers to read and comprehend its content.
35:14 – Emphasis on the need for a global perspective in energy discussions, frustration over energy hypocrisy preventing African nations’ development, and the impact of virtue signaling in developed countries.
38:58 – Frustration over energy hypocrisy in California, potential agreements to buy oil from China, and the need for responsible and globally conscious energy policies.
42:33 – Discuss the potential integration of nuclear energy into oil and gas operations, exploring the concept of using small modular reactors to power fracking fleets and addressing environmental concerns.
47:32 – Appreciation for Irina Slav’s insightful writings, recounting a personal visit to her in Bulgaria, and suggesting a collaboration with Irina for a future panel discussion on the synergy between oil and gas and nuclear energy.
Other great resources from Sandstone and Energy News Beat
Real Estate Investor Pulse
1031 Exchange E-Book https://alternativeinvestments.sandstone-group.com/en-us/tax-benefits-sandstone-group-0-1-1-0
ENB Top News https://energynewsbeat.co/top-news/
ENB https://energynewsbeat.co/
Energy Dashboard https://app.sandstone-group.com/enb-dashboard-version-2
ENB Podcast https://energynewsbeat.co/industry-insights-2/
ENB Substack
https://theenergynewsbeat@substack.com
– Get in Contact With The Show –
Stuart Turley [00:00:08] Hello, everybody. Do you ever have those days when you’re sitting there scratching your head, when all of a sudden the politicians in the world promised to go to green, renewable nirvana but have no way to get there? And we sit here and go, can you make a iPhone from a windmill? That is the question we’re going to ask today. I guarantee you it’s going to be a lot of fun. Buckle up. Get your tray table on the side and we’re going to have some fun. My name is Stu Turley. President CEO of the Samsung Group. And I’ve got an unbelievable guest today. He is Douglas Sandridge with Fulcrum Energy operating. Thank you, Doug, for stopping by the podcast.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:00:59] Great to be here is fantastic to to help help get this message about energy out in you guys are a great conduit.
Stuart Turley [00:01:07] Oh well. Well thank you. I’ll tell you. I’ll pay you later. And, uh, a little inside baseball. You and I have just had a lot of fun chit chat and back around. You’re an old you grad, and, uh, you’re on your way. You’re in Denver right now. You’re coming back to, uh. Oh, you to see your your mom. But I went to that other horrible school, uh, Oklahoma State University. And, uh, I just love our rivalry. I am so sad that you guys went to the SEC.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:01:37] So I’m a little sad, too. But it is what it is. They didn’t ask me my opinion.
Stuart Turley [00:01:43] No, they didn’t ask mine. But you know what? In the bright side, bright side of things. Uh, I went to school with Gundy, uh, and, uh, when he was playing there and, uh, uh, he’s go, he’s go get. And at least we won the last game we played. Now I’ll just leave that alone. You guys won 9001 and we won the last one, so that’s okay.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:02:06] I thought we’re talking energy here today. I didn’t know I was going to get slapped down.
Stuart Turley [00:02:12] Know this is going to be over in a moment. All right. Let’s go ahead and get started. You got worked up when you were sitting there as an oil executive. Uh, the great oil and gas of the United States can get us to energy independence. But we need nuclear. We need wind, we need solar. We need all of it to get the lowest kilowatt per hour to elevate everybody out of humanity, out of poverty. But why can’t we all get along? I think we’ve heard that before. And what work do you up to?
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:02:50] Well, um, I’ve been worked up my whole life. I remember my dad was a geologist for 40 years for Phillips Petroleum and, um, you know, we were getting worked up around the dinner table 40 years ago. And, um, the oil and gas business certainly has not done a good job representing itself. They they just always have always sat back and and taking the shots and not counterpunch very much. And I know a lot of people, even in my own family, you know, going to Thanksgiving dinner and your grandparents and your uncles, they’re all chipping away at you and talking smack about the oil and gas business. And most of them have no idea, uh, how valuable oil and gas has been to, uh, human flourishing, uh, flourishing of the American society in Western society. So, um, fortunately, I think, uh, a lot of people in our industry are starting to, uh, be emboldened and be empowered to come out and, uh, stop being embarrassed about what we do and talk about all the great things that this industry has done for for humanity. Um, what got me really worked up more recently, as I had recently, you and I discussed was back in the 2020 election cycle for four years ago. Um, we’re sitting there in Covid, and I, um, did something kind of unusual. I, I was teaching class at University of Oklahoma, so I’m always trying to keep an edge and trying to be informed. And of course, your students are usually smarter than you, so I gotta do everything I can to stay ahead of the students. And I was researching and trying to learn the policy positions of all the, uh, 20 plus Democratic candidates for president. Now, a lot of them didn’t have policy positions on energy, which is understandable. You can understand, uh, Mayor Pete Buttigieg. He just was not very knowledgeable about energy. I don’t think he had an official policy position, but he was the mayor of, um, South Bend, Indiana. So. But the one that got me worked up was Michael Bloomberg, because Michael Bloomberg, whatever you think about his politics, he is a sharp guy. He’s obviously very smart and, um, on his website, and his website is probably still out there for all to go see. But on his presidential website, it said, if you elect me president, then by the end of my second term. So basically saying in eight years we will have 80% of our electricity will be provided by renewable energy. Wow. And my head exploded and I was like, this is not a this is not a lack of will or a lack of money. This is just simply not possible. And I, I started to research all the ways why this was an absolute ridiculous statement.
Stuart Turley [00:05:31] Absolutely. I mean, people don’t realize that you cannot it’s energy versus, uh, I mean, electricity is only one form of the energy. And you can make highways. You can’t make things without petrochemicals. You can’t make an iPhone. I don’t I love seeing all these people going get rid of, uh. Oil or no more oil. And then they glued themselves to the road with glue made from oil.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:06:08] Exactly. And where are you going to? Uh, how are you going to pave the United States without asphalt? I mean, what 95% of our asphalt comes from, um, production of oil and gas and coal?
Stuart Turley [00:06:21] I wrote, uh, three years ago, uh, uh, that the more we go renewable, the more we go renewable, the more fossil fuels we will use. And everybody was like, really? I’m Mike. Here’s the numbers. California is using more coal now than when they have the coal plants, because they have to back for anyway. Long story.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:06:46] Well, it sounds like we’re we’re, uh, the 2023, we will set a new annual record for coal use worldwide. And I don’t think there’s anybody who disagrees that we will not set another record for use of coal worldwide next year, in 2024. So, uh. It’s true.
Stuart Turley [00:07:03] Now, I am a huge nuclear fan. I and we have to have nuclear. We have to have natural gas. And, uh, the EIA, the political, uh, folks, legislation through regulatory action is what just drives me nuts. That’s like something somebody from OSU would do. Uh, I don’t know, but but when we sit back and kind of go, eh, um, we have the, um, regulations there.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:07:36] Well, we got to have all we got to have all these energies and I, you know, for me to say Bloomberg’s, uh, statement was ridiculous. Um, doesn’t make me anti renewable. I mean, it doesn’t. I think there’s a perfectly appropriate place for renewable energy, and it’s going to be a huge part of the so-called energy transition, you know, the next 30 years. But solar and wind and batteries alone are not going to power society at an industrial scale. So we need more than just wind and solar. And like you said, I think nuclear is often overlooked. And, and, uh, we’re hopefully on the cusp of, uh, of a nuclear renaissance.
Stuart Turley [00:08:22] Uh, I sure hope so. And, um, I had the opportunity to interview, uh, miss, uh, America.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:08:29] Uh, great thinking.
Stuart Turley [00:08:31] And she is adorable. I mean, she was over in Dubai, and it was midnight my time. And I got to the interviewer and she was glowing. I swear, I thought she was nuclear, being a nuclear engineer. She was talking about the UAE, and they’ve got 25% of their power for the UAE is coming out of their brand new nuclear facility. That is a great baseline. We need that nuclear baseline.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:09:00] She’s she’s a superstar. And and, uh, we need people like that to help, um, guide this renaissance because most young people who are going to be helping guide this aren’t looking to people like you and me for advice on energy. So Grace thank is is she’s she’s a rock star.
Stuart Turley [00:09:21] She is. Now tell me about what you’ve got for your, um, nuclear project or your executives. You have over 100 executives signed this thing. Tell us about that.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:09:33] Well, let me back up and tell you a little bit about how I got there because, um. You know, I’m. Let’s let’s be clear. I’m an oil and gas person. I’ve been working in oil and gas for over 40 years. So I’m. I’m an oil and gas professional, and I’ve spent my entire life doing oil and gas. Um, little known fact, I was actually a nuclear engineering major in college. Uh, in 1979, when Three Mile Island, um, occurred, Three Mile Island accident occurred. And to be honest, I don’t want to make myself out to be some sort of, you know, smart nuclear engineering guy. I was a nuclear engineer because I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Uh, a lot of my friends were in engineering. I actually just thought it would be cool to to say I’m a nuclear engineer. So that was my major. Uh, you know, I was taking all the basic classes. I never really learned anything about nuclear engineering. I was taking, you know, calculus and physics and stuff. And then the Three Mile Island accident happened in Pennsylvania, and, uh, that was that was kind of the last straw that broke the camel’s back. And the nuclear industry in the US for a long time, uh, the nuclear industry had been in decline for quite a while prior to that. But then shortly before that, um, that accident happened, the China Syndrome came out with Jane Fonda scaring all the public. And then when it really happened, um, then it just scared the bejesus out of everybody. And the reality is, you know, it wasn’t a it was a major accident, but no one was hurt. Um, there was no major release of radiation. Nobody got a, you know, a big dose of radiation. Um, all the safety systems work. They did work. But in fact, the I think the, um, the other unit at Three Mile Island continued operating until 2 or 3 years ago. So it was overblown, but it did throw a kink, a wrench into the works. And I ended up getting into oil and gas after that and have no regrets about that. And but I spent my whole life in oil and gas, and I have a family and a 60 hour week job. I didn’t really have time to be advocating for nuclear energy, so I didn’t really come back to nuclear energy until it really started with that, uh, 2020 evaluation of the Democratic candidates for president, because as I started looking at what they wanted to do, I started to conclude that really, we are not going to make any serious, um, movement on reducing carbon emissions without nuclear energy, that that has to be part of the equation. I’m not saying the only part. I have friends in the nuclear industry think we should be all nuclear all the time. No oil and gas, no renewables, just nuclear. That is not how I feel. But I do think it’s got to be part of it. And so I started to get involved in some nuclear advocacy work. And, um, I think I had mentioned to you previously, I traveled to, uh, Berlin on two different occasions in the last three years, uh, with the U.S. delegation trying to shame the Germans into keeping their last six nuclear power plants open. And we knew that it was unlikely that it would work. But you had to go on record as saying this is really a bad idea to close down those plants. And I worked with several other, uh, pro-nuclear groups around the country, but I was sort of an apprentice, you know, I was I would listen, sit in, listen to groups and and participate to the extent that I could. But I’m an all in gas guy in some respects. I was kind of the token oil and gas guy and a lot of this nuclear advocacy. And I was always looking for a way that I could maybe, um, become more involved, but not being a nuclear person and having my own job, I mean, was sort of limited my options. And then last year, I was on a conference call with the group that ultimately saved Diablo Canyon. It was one it was a stand in for nuclear group. And, uh, we’re on a conference call. And as usual, I usually, uh, am on mute, listening and learning and seeing the politics and strategies of what’s going on. And, uh, someone in the group said, well, we know. Are you all on gas? Guys hate oil, hate us nuclear. And I was like, I don’t think that’s really true. And then before I even was able to take myself off a MUC, either that same person or someone else followed that up and said, not only that, you oil and gas companies overtly undermine the nuclear industry, and I just know that’s not true. And so I took myself off of me and I said, I think you guys are crazy. I, I don’t know all the millions of people in the US that work in oil, in oil and gas. But I know a lot and I don’t know anyone who who does not support nuclear energy. And I think the reason we all support nuclear energy is generally oil and gas. People are very pragmatic. They understand a superior form of energy. They understand a good, uh, reliable, resilient, affordable, uh, energy source. And we’re man enough to recognize another one. Even though we’re in oil and gas, we’re man enough to recognize nuclear for all the the energy dense value that, that, that, uh, industry brings. So I push back a little bit and then I started thinking to myself, well, maybe I’m maybe I’m the one that has the bad perspective. So I started asking friends and asking around to see if anybody else, uh, felt the same way in my industry that we’re anti-nuclear. And over the course of a couple of months, I couldn’t find a single person. Not one, not privately. They’re all like, no, nuclear’s great. And so I decided, well, maybe one thing I could do to to help the cause, to help push forward the narrative that we need to do more nuclear was, I said, maybe it would be very powerful if, uh, we had a bunch of oil and gas executives to sign a declaration saying, uh, in support of nuclear energy because you don’t see coal executives putting out a promotion in favor of solar, you don’t see wind executives saying how good oil and gas is. And so it’s powerful because we don’t get as oil and gas executives, we don’t gain anything, uh, personally by coming out in favor of it. We’re saying it because it’s true and because it’s impactful. And I had this idea and I’m sure you know, Chris Wright, the CEO of Liberty Energy, one of the greatest advocates for our industry anywhere in the world. Yep. And, um, I thought, you know, I’m not sure I’ve got the gravitas to do this. So I, I thought, I’m going to call Chris and see if he thinks this is a good idea. And so I sent Chris an email or text I can’t remember. And, um, thinking, you know, he might get back to me in a week or so. And he’s a very busy guy, and he doesn’t just drop what he’s doing. Answer me. But almost immediately he texted me or email me back and said, I love this idea, let’s do it. So we drafted this declaration and, um, it took several months because we’re all still busy doing our real jobs. It was the holidays. We had family going on and and we were trying to make a statement about why energy is important and why nuclear energy is important to the energy mix. And, uh, after 2 or 3 months, we finally got a, um, a declaration together that, um, explained why energy is important to the world and why nuclear energy is important, uh, as part of the energy mix. And we I sent it over to Chris and said, what do you think? I was figuring he was going to edit it and, you know, he’s going to put his name on it. I want him to be the first one to sign it. And I sent it over there. And a, you know, an hour later, his, uh, assistant called me and said, hey, he signed to come pick it up. We’re ready to roll. And so we just went out and started asking executives to sign it. And, uh, like you said, we have over 100 that assigned so far and some pretty big names. And almost everybody that we’ve asked has agreed to sign it. Now, it’s sometimes hard to get the attention of some of these, um, executives because they’re busy, uh, they’re busy finding oil and gas for the world. But, um, it’s it’s been kind of a labor of love, and all we’re trying to do is raise the, um, the visibility of this issue and having these hundred executives sign this, um, you know, can be leveraged for, you know, to help promote pro-nuclear programs.
Stuart Turley [00:18:04] And I think it’s fabulous. Um, a little bit of a side note on on Chris little, um, I met Chris years ago, and he really kicked off. And I attribute, uh, Alex Epstein and, uh, Chris, right, for how I’ve, uh, laid out this podcast. And I believe that we need to have elevate humanity out of poverty through low cost energy. That presentation that Chris Wright gave, I’m like, I never looked at oil and gas that way. Here. I have been working in the in the industry and I’m like, this is the coolest articulation of low cost energy and humanity. Chris Wright is just a cool human. Uh, and I have interviewed him twice, and I just I love that man. But his articulation of everything going on. And when I saw him, I went and looked at your site. Boom. He’s the first one right up there. Like, this is cool. I’m in. So you’ve got a advocate, uh, with Chris, right there is a humanitarian. Yes. And not only is he a humanitarian, uh, he’s a little bit ESG in the oil and gas. Folks have done a great job cleaning up their act over the last several decades. And when you see Chris Wright drinking his frack fluid with his staff lined up, that’s commitment.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:19:45] Yeah, he is great. Uh, I can’t say enough good about Chris. And, um. What the thing that he’s done for me more than just be the first signatory on this declaration is, is that I have run away and then a fraidy cat my entire life. You know, when people, um, try to belittle the oil and gas business or come at us. Uh, I have not been willing to be a stand up guy and say, stop. You guys are crazy. I but he is. He is empowered us to. Now he’s given us the narrative and he’s empowered, has made us feel like it’s okay to stand up and defend the oil and gas business. It doesn’t mean that we don’t support the development of renewable energy, doesn’t mean that we don’t see a great role for nuclear. But I now am willing to push back against people who try and disparage all the great things that oil and gas has provided for our society.
Stuart Turley [00:20:42] In this cool. Um, you know, it’s funny. And as an oil guy, uh, you sit back and take a look at how Exxon and Shell and you take a look at, I love, um, uh, the way that it’s changed the European BP. Uh, you take a look at total energy. That’s my Texas Oklahoma accent and on how to pronounce them. They went totally green. And then they lost billions, and and they were sitting there kind of going, but the Exxon and Chevron’s didn’t go as far. But yet you look at oxy and oxy is going to carbon capture to get that. They’re doing great. So the market is allowing the oil and gas folks to help the other industries in and work in this renewable. Uh, you nailed it on on this. And I think the leadership and now that we’re all able to defend our great oil and gas workers out there and what we do, I’m all I think it’s phenomenal that we are finally there and defending what we’re doing.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:21:54] You know, think about it. And the the greatest private some of the greatest private research in the United States is done by companies like Exxon and Chevron. Right. And and formerly Phillips Petroleum had one of the the right world class uh, research uh departments. And though that’s where these these technologies are going to be advanced through uh, companies like this. So we we should instead of ostracizing Exxon and Chevron, we should be bringing them in to help solve these problems.
Stuart Turley [00:22:27] Uh, I, I agree, and I love your journey that you’re on, on this because you’re articulating exactly what needs to happen to the next generation. We we talked about grace. What a great world leader asset. I’m it’s going to be fun watching her career. Uh, I was teasing with her that she’s going to be a great secretary of energy because she understands all forms of energy. And I think that how do we get the next generation interested? Because, um, uh, my business partner is a young, uh, millennial. He’s one of the coolest men on the planet. Uh, and how do we get more Michael Tanners into the oil and gas space? I mean, uh, you got any thoughts on that? Because your push to help articulate nuclear, oil and gas for nuclear is really, really cool in a subset. Could be bringing in the next generation well.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:23:33] Being. And energy is a little more cool now than it was just five years ago. I mean, honestly, and, you know, my degree was in what, at the. The time they called it petroleum land management. I’m sure you’ve heard of that degree, you know. And, um, you know, the University of Oklahoma has rebranded that energy management. And so that, you know, you grow with the times and that that program now, um, is not just dedicated to petroleum energy management, land management, but to all energies. And they teach about nuclear and renewables. And, um, they’ve got professors about wind and solar and so forth. So, um, we are making that transition, but it hasn’t really been cool to be an energy of any kind. And, uh, what’s happened, though, is, uh, a lot of people have come to the energy industry out of a out of a, uh, concern about climate and. Right. You know, it’s interesting because a lot of the people that have come around in the last five years to be become pro-nuclear have done so because of their climate concerns, right? Because of their energy resilience or because of affordable energy, but because of climate. And so a lot of these groups that I work with that are, you know, nuclear. You’ve got, uh, everyone’s pro-nuclear, but some of them are pro-nuclear only because of climate and some are pro-nuclear like me, because they are, uh, interested in energy security, energy resiliency, affordable energy, that sort of thing. There could be a little clash, because a lot of the climate hawks that are in these organizations immediately don’t like the fact that I’m in one of these organizations because they view me as the enemy. But at least but now I think it’s funny because most of the people that I know that come into energy from climate through nuclear over time. They invariably develop a much more robust respect for the oil and gas and coal industries. And once they because they come into the industry just because they’re trying to do something for climate, as they do that, they learn more about energy. And the more they learn, if they learn truly about the energy systems, you cannot help but conclude, you know what? What a big part oil and gas and coal have been and probably will continue to be in the energy mix. So, uh, we’re getting a lot of people into the energy business that, um, are coming in for climate reasons, and now they’re becoming energy interested. And it’s funny because the University of Oklahoma, um, just even 4 or 5 years ago, their enrollment in petroleum engineering and land management and those things were very far down. You couldn’t get anybody interested in those degrees. And, um, I just found out this week or a couple weeks ago, I should say that a class that I usually teach once a year at University of Oklahoma, they have so many students now in the energy management program that they want it. They want me to come teach that class now twice a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. So it is encouraging to know that it’s maybe becoming slightly more cool for the young people to get involved in the in the energy business.
Stuart Turley [00:26:50] Yeah, I’ll tell you next time you’re there teaching. Uh, I would love to come do a podcast with you in the class and do it from a, uh, thing. Thanks. Give that. Uh oh. You a little bit of notoriety out there and help get that story out there. We need the next generation out there.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:27:09] We do? We do. And I I’m and I’m heartened by what I’m seeing. And and another example of that. I don’t know if you know him at Penny. Uh, no, but he, he, uh, writes a, um, uh, a weekly, uh, piece called Grid Brief. And you ought to look at look into grid brief does some great work. And what I love about it is, um, I my favorite subjects in high school, in college were philosophy. Uh, I love philosophy, but I could not, for the life of me figure out how I could make a living doing philosophy. So I ended up doing oil and gas, but in it went to school and got a degree in, in philosophy. And he was a self, um, described Marxist when he was in college. And um, but he got out of college and he had some student loan debt, and he’s working three jobs, uh, doing minimum wage, and he slowly became a non Marxist anymore. I mean, the reality slapped him in the face. Um, and then he went to work. Uh, I believe he went to work, uh, out from Michael Shellenberger, uh, working on the pro-nuclear, uh, agenda, environmental progress and, um. He has slowly learned about the energy industry and is now become a really great resource. Please check out his his book.
Stuart Turley [00:28:39] Absolutely I will.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:28:41] And I like him though, because he’s the he’s the example of the guys who come in to the energy space as a Marxist, oil and gas hating and nuclear loving person. But as he learns more about nuclear, he learns more about energy systems. And when you learn more about energy systems, you see how difficult it is to to completely upend an energy system and how important. And then he understands how important oil and gas has been for human flourishing over the years. And, um, he has come full cycle over. And so I love it. He’s a typical story of how once you get into this and learn about it, there’s more. There’s more than just the, uh, the, the, the quick slogans of the environmentalist. There’s there’s a lot more to know about the energy transition.
Stuart Turley [00:29:37] You know, one of the things, uh, that I absolutely, uh, Schoenberg’s Coolcat, uh, um, uh, the, the one thing I do love is, uh, in your, one of your sub stacks that I read, uh, that was out there, uh, Meredith Angwin shorting the grid. Her book is phenomenal. And when we sit back and and and, uh, you and I talk about the importance of a baseload nuclear in, in, you know, in, uh, Texas, uh, ten, uh, 10%, uh, or something like that is baseload nuclear. They have four, uh, two reactors, four actual reactors, two locations. Uh, and then we have all the natural gas, uh, plants, total energy. Just bought all this, uh, all these natural gas plants because they’re wanting to invest in natural gas. That comes back into all of a sudden they’re coming back our way. But Meredith is a national treasure. And I did not understand, really, the interconnection between nuclear oil and gas, coal and renewables. Until you read that book shorting the book, I highly recommend. I’ve enjoyed my two conversations with her and she really articulates. Could you imagine, Doug, if you and I went back in 79 and became a grid balancing authority? Uh, you and I would not we’d be in a mental institution by having to try to figure, well.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:31:11] Meredith is a rock star, and, um, I’ve become friends with her, and I sometimes. I sometimes actually send things for her to review before I publish them. So that last, uh, article that you read, um, I sent it to her ahead of time, and I said, uh, you know, I’m going to quote you in here and please let me know if you’ve got any, any comments about my. So I think she is a national treasure. And it’s interesting because when she’s such an unassuming person and, um, it’s easy for her to, for you to be sort of lulled into believing she’s not, uh, not a real. Expert on this matter because she says, oh, nice. And so, um, but when I first. When I first heard about her, I was reading everything I could about energy and I. And there’s not many books out there about the grid, so I wanted to read that book, and it was unbelievable. And so now I ended up reading that book three times. It’s like a textbook. I have about 100 different pages marked in it, and I go back to it all the time. And so now, you know, first when I first saw it, I said, oh, there’s a nice little old lady who’s written this book and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And now she is the gold standard. And she literally, uh, that book is and is is is so important to the industry, our entire national industry, because she has brought together all these different pieces in a way that most people had never thought about it. And I know people in the utility industry who read her. I know people in the oil and gas and people in the electricity industry. Everybody needs to read that book.
Stuart Turley [00:32:47] It’s all about the grid, stupid. I’m serious. And I did not know that it was that complicated. It’s one of the world’s biggest machines that has ever been built. And and when you take, uh, you know, the balancing authority, when you take a coal plant, you take a natural gas plant and you add 20% for your baseload in case you need to bring another plant down or anything else. That’s that’s a pretty easy formula. Yeah. And so, you know, okay, as soon as you add one wind farm to it, you gotta make it now 180% for that baseload because of the balancing authority and the additional drugs that they need in order to maintain their sanity. So, you know, these people, you’re.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:33:33] Saying that they have to make the reserve margin 180%? No, they should be making it. They are not doing that. That’s the problem in Texas is they don’t have any reserve margin. I mean, literally physics matter.
Stuart Turley [00:33:47] And Meredith points that out. You. So everybody says, oh, I’ve got a wind turbine that one of us does one gigawatt. No, you need 180 of those in order to make it. Anyway, I.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:33:59] Don’t think any of these people who were probably getting these new rules should be allowed to promulgate any new rules in less than ten. Say they have read Meredith’s book. I mean, literally that that should be a prerequisite.
Stuart Turley [00:34:11] And pass a test. My.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:34:16] She’s great. And and I do a lot of reading um, by audio book because I travel a lot. And so at least half the books, more than half the books I read, I do buy audio while I’m either traveling or in the shower. And, um, I was always disappointed at Meredith, you know, it was, um, a small publication, an inch. And so it was not originally an audiobook. And then another, uh, friend of mine from, uh, the nuclear business, Eric Meyer, um, is also friends with Meredith, and he agreed. He I think he’s a, uh, a trained opera singer, so he’s got a great voice.
Stuart Turley [00:34:53] Wow.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:34:53] And he, um, he contacted Mary and said, I’ll read that book and put it on audio for you. I it’s so important. And so recently he has read the book and they put it out on audio. So now I listen to the book again.
Stuart Turley [00:35:07] I will go buy it today.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:35:08] With Eric Meyer as the as the, uh. Narrator.
Stuart Turley [00:35:12] How cool is that?
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:35:13] Yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:35:14] Uh. Um, just the more we can get people excited to elevate and pull the Chris. Right. I’m sorry. We keep going back to these great industry thought leaders that are out there, and we’ve got to share the word because the great oil and gas folks, I went out to the, uh, uh, International oil and Gas show out in Midland. Uh, that was that was so cool. I got to stand out there with my cowboy hat, and I’m, I’m visiting with, uh, on my podcast. I’ve got everybody lined up out here, and I’m visiting with the secretary general for the African OPEC. So it’s the African oil producers, uh, organization, the OPEC of Africa. And we’re talking about energy security for Africa from the largest oil field in the in the world is in the Permian Basin. And how cool is that? You can, uh, we’ve got to be able to have a global discussion. It’s not just the US.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:36:22] You know, it’s true. And it’s funny. Uh, one of the guys I, when I went to Germany in November of 2021, they were getting ready to shut down three of their final six nuclear power plant. And one of the guys that I met there was a young kid. I don’t even know how he afforded to come to Germany, but somebody had helped him get there from Nigeria, you know, from, um. Uh, I can’t even remember a country in East Africa. It might have been Ethiopia. No, it was, uh, Southeast Africa. Okay. And, uh, but I met this guy who was really, really nice, and he was a young kid just trying to stir up an interest in the nuclear business, uh, industry in Africa. And I met him, and, uh, just the other day, he called me and said, hey, I want you to come on my podcast from Zambia or wherever he is right now. Um, and, uh, so you’re right, it’s a worldwide issue. And I do have a lot of, uh, sympathy for the African continent and what’s going on there, because they have they they are very energy poor. They’re very electricity poor. Right. Um, and the colonialism that is going on today, um, and the continued patron ization of those countries, especially by the European countries who say, you know, we’re not going to loan you money for an oil and gas exploration. We’re not going to loan you money for coal mines. Uh, you know that these people, uh, need to be allowed to develop some sort of minimal amount of energy and that there’s such energy poverty. My parents lived in the Ivory Coast. Uh, when I was in coll, after I was in college. I didn’t didn’t live there, but I used to visit, you know, often. And, uh, the abject poverty is is almost hard to understand as an American. Wow. And, uh, they have the right. And we should be enabling them.
Stuart Turley [00:38:34] Exactly.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:38:35] Uh, the right to to, eh, to develop their energy resources. And, you know, for Germany, Germans to, you know, say we’re not going to loan you money for these projects, but then they’re they’re turning off more coal plants themselves and buying the coal from South Africa. Um, it’s just, uh, a very hypocritical and very sad thing. And I think we got to get past that.
Stuart Turley [00:38:58] Uh, energy hypocrisy drives me nuts, and I do everything I can. We’re in 150 countries in this podcast, and it absolutely drives me nuts that we have such energy in ESG and bankruptcy. Um, in any, uh, I’ve got other, uh, world leaders. I am thrilled that Africa is standing up, uh, and saying, hey, wait a minute now it’s the International Monetary Fund I think needs to be abolished. I think that we need to invest in, in Africa. And, you know, the let’s take this as another, uh, component of your nuclear movement. Do you know what we could do to help out Africa is if we had the great oil and gas companies invest in Africa. Do you know the business development and demand that could be done by elevating them out of poverty? The commercial market that you could do, it would be phenomenal. When if I was an oil and gas executive and I wanted to plan out the next 50 years. Uh, let’s elevate them. Let’s get them drinking water. Let’s build the grid. Um, and then when you take a look at the EIA in 2022, the only reason the US, uh, reduced our green, uh, our carbon output was because of natural gas and natural gas. Now China increased theirs 220% because of the over 400, uh, coal plants that they’re putting in. And then we have China. Uh, we are buying all these renewables, uh, from China. They’re using coal to make it and then selling it to us, and we’re going bankrupt. My head just explodes when we talk about this.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:41:02] Well, I think this is one of the the huge failures we’ve had in education, in energy education. Because you can look at this from a California standpoint. This is very similar California. They, uh, they get rid of their natural gas plants to get rid of their coal plants. Um, they’ve not stopped driving their cars. I was in LA last week. They’re still driving their cars. They’re still running their air conditioners. So it’s it’s, um, um, it’s virtue signaling. And so what they do is they’re saying that they get rid of the refineries, they get rid of their coal plants, and yet they still are using the electricity they’re buying, you know, crude oil from, uh, countries in South America that are producing it out of the rainforest, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, um. The same thing is happening with China. We’re not reducing our carbon emissions. When we ship our work, we’re shifting our carbon emissions. Not we’re not reducing them. We’re we’re we’re virtue signaling by saying we’re not going to do it here. And then we send it to China. And so we basically re-import those, those carbon emissions when we really import the cars, the solar panels, the wind turbines, all the thousands of products we buy. We’re, we’re we are not getting rid of carbon emissions. We are shifting them to China. So it makes us feel good. And then we’re re importing them sneakily.
Stuart Turley [00:42:31] All right. Are you ready for this one?
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:42:33] Okay.
Stuart Turley [00:42:33] You’re going to hear it here. Second. Newsom, our beloved governor in our third world country of California. I love California. Um, I just am sorry that it’s going the way it is, but they’re shutting down all of their, um, refineries in California. What happens when president Z. From China piles in and he cleans up and Newsom stands up there and with hypocrisy and doesn’t even miss a beat. Oh, we cleaned up the homeless because president Z was coming in. So what’s your point? So then guess what China has just done? China has increased their, uh, refining capacity 1 million barrels per day. And agreements are being drawn up for, uh, California to buy China oil, uh, and refined products because we could have made it here. Do you know what that’s doing to the environment? They’re not practicing good ESG. You’re going to hear it here first, and I guarantee you it is not public yet. I’m trying to get those documents and they are there. And it is something that Shellenberger I guarantee you, he will pop this thing out and you’re going to hear that those those agreements are going to be made public fairly soon. And that drives me nuts.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:44:08] Sorry. Yeah. I mean that it would be more intellectually honest to say, okay, we’re going to close down the refineries. And by the way, we will not sell gasoline anymore, but instead we’re going to close down the refineries and buy it from China and India.
Stuart Turley [00:44:23] And they’re already destroying the rainforests. You just brought that up. They’re buying 70% of the Chinese oil that’s built, that’s tearing apart the great rainforest. They’re doing it. The energy hypocrisy in California is hurting the poor people. I’m sorry. I’m getting worked up, and I I’m I’m sorry. I just signed your, uh, your, uh, oil people for executives. I don’t know that I qualify, but, uh, my company, I do, uh, bring data from the oil fields into accounting and then do investors. So I don’t know that I qualify, but you’re in.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:45:03] You’re in, you’re in. And I remember the fella who called me from Africa was from Kenya. Kenya. He said Nairobi.
Stuart Turley [00:45:12] Van Park.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:45:13] Want to be respectful to him. Um, it’s terrible that I forgot where he was from, but, um, I’ll be doing a podcast with him, hopefully here soon.
Stuart Turley [00:45:20] Oh, uh, Evan, let us know because I want to share it in anything that we can get on the energy news, be platform. We want to help be an arm for you. And I guarantee you that you have an open invitation. Doug, any time that you want to have a panel, let’s get Chris. Let’s get anybody. Let’s have panels, let’s have webinars. Let’s do education and help get the word out for your organization. I am all in on helping you out.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:45:54] Well, maybe we’ll do a panel, uh, and talk about how the oil and gas business is going to embrace nuclear. I had no idea when I started this idea, uh, how, uh, how deeply the, um, oil and gas business is getting into nuclear as well. And so I don’t know if you know this, but, uh, but, uh, Liberty Energy has recently invested in Oklo.
Stuart Turley [00:46:18] Oh, no, I didn’t know that.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:46:20] Yes, they are an investor in Oklo. And so, uh, Chris, um, Liberty had a, uh, at it had an event in Midland. So here we are talking about the marriage of nuclear and oil and gas. But back in the, uh, in October, um, Liberty Energy, uh, rented out the Petroleum Club in Midland and, uh, invited all the oil and gas people in Midland to come listen to a presentation about club. And so all of a sudden, I, I started to realize there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes. I know of at least one other well-known service company that is deeply invested in nuclear. It’s not it’s not public. But I also know several of the the major oil companies are invested in, uh, nuclear energy, both production and fusion. Uh, there’s some companies taking a serious look at nuclear energy out of the Permian Basin right now, because if you can imagine, you, you know, the amount of growth that has taken place in the Permian in the last ten years in the electric system, electric operator out there simply cannot keep pace. There’s not enough copper wire, there’s not enough technicians, there’s not enough transformers. Uh, and so there’s.
Stuart Turley [00:47:31] Terrible.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:47:32] They’re talking about building their own infrastructure out there, small micro reactors or small modular reactors. And, um, the demand for electricity is skyrocketing. And even in even in Texas, the oil and gas companies are becoming more concerned about, uh, emissions and more concerned about not. Always. And I think, Chris, Chris, I’m not gonna speak for Chris, but I think Liberty Energy’s probably thinking, you know, we can if we could build a nuclear power plant out in West Texas. So I know I have no insider knowledge about Liberty or what they’re doing, but I just speculating that companies like Liberty and other, uh, frack fleets might be looking at it and saying, um, we could if we could get a small modular reactor out here and we could, we could run our frack fleets on.
Stuart Turley [00:48:24] Small.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:48:25] Nuclear energy rather than diesel, that that cleans up the diesel and also make you’re using less diesel. You can use that for more, um, other products, uh, oil and gas products. And it also it makes your fleet quiet. And so that that is a, you know, a metric that is is helpful to the community. It provides, you know, some, some standing with your community when you’re fracking these things with quiet electric fleets where the diesel fleet. So I can see where there’s a synergy developing that coal and oil and gas and a lot of oil and gas investment in nuclear right now.
Stuart Turley [00:48:59] Um, you know, I didn’t understand truly, uh, when I first saw that years ago, when, uh, Chris was building his electric fleet, uh, for frack. And I was sitting there going. Now, that’s kind of counterintuitive until you sit there and he can get captured, uh, flare gas from the well. Oh, instead of flaring it, burn it to electricity, pump it in to, uh, using it on the electric flight. All of a sudden, I’m going. Chris is brilliant again. And I’m like, that makes sense to me. And it’s like, wow.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:49:36] Well, you know, most of these oil fields around the world are in these very terrible remote areas where there are people normally, um, but, uh, here in Colorado and of course, Liberty’s located here in Colorado. Their headquarters are here, and we have the big DJ basin, which was, you know, um, a big oil and gas producing province for the last 90 years or so. But, um, in the last 20 years, we’ve had a lot of people move in to Colorado. And so now we have a lot of people, a lot of them from California and Oregon and Washington, and they’re moving into areas and there’s oil and gas wells all around them, and they’re raising a lot of stink about oil and gas development. One of the things that you can do to kind of head off some of that criticism is to have quiet fleets. So I think that probably the JW Basin and Liberty and the, uh, operations here in Colorado was kind of the testing ground for developing, uh, quiet fleets. And, uh, you know, a lot of them here run off the grid. But if you were in West Texas, you can’t, you know, I have a friend that works for refinery out of West Texas. They said if we wanted to to to request new service out here in the Permian Basin, it would take about 4 to 5 years before we could get new service, you know, installed. And so I think that’s why these oil and gas companies might be looking at possibly using micro reactors as an alternative.
Stuart Turley [00:51:04] So, uh, in fact, my company was, uh, critical in getting the first, um, uh, permits done for PDC because when they put the new Senate bill, I think it was to 18, uh, on the, uh, regulatory issues in Colorado, they’re a nightmare. Absolutely a nightmare. In fact, they don’t they nobody could even understand the regulations, let alone the regulatory agency that did it. We automated it. And we’re able to go out and grab, because you got to be able to know how many cars, how many homes you got to be able to provide all these things within, uh, x number of feet of, you know, the thing. And we were able to help, help them get that. Uh, so, um, I got great people that understand all those things.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:51:53] Colorado is a tough nut. It’s, uh, very difficult. It’s not. It’s not quite as bad as California, but it’s close.
Stuart Turley [00:52:00] Uh, I believe the people coming to Colorado are bringing their voting policies with them. So.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:52:08] Yeah, when people ask me where I from, I usually tell them I’m from Eastern California.
Stuart Turley [00:52:15] Well, I love that. Well, Doug, I want you back. And I know that you and I are going to do some more podcasts in the future and webinars and any way that I can help, uh, even be live and do things for you. Um, what are some last thoughts for you and how do people get Ahold of you? I’m going to have your LinkedIn information here in the show notes. And, uh, anything else? Uh, uh, all of your contact information. But yeah.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:52:46] That’s a great way to reach out to me. I do a lot of a lot of my contacts on LinkedIn, and I’d love to to work together more. Uh, I’ll let you know. I’m teaching that next class in OSU and in February, and I’ll get with the program director, and we’ll see about getting a live podcast going. And I’d love to do a, um, a panel. Let’s get, uh, you know, later in the spring, let’s get Chris Ryan and some others on a panel and talk about the synergy of oil and gas and nuclear. That would be a great panel. Um, I know you do stuff with the arena. I’d like to give a shout out to Irina. She’s a great friend. Uh, Irina. Slav.
Stuart Turley [00:53:23] It’s fun.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:53:25] Uh, I love her. I love reading her stuff about more than anyone else just because she’s so witty. Um, and so tongue in cheek. I went and visited her last year in Norway. I was, uh, well, I went to. I went to Berlin in April to, uh, they were closing down the last three nuclear power plants on April the 15th. So I went with a bunch of people there to again rally and show our our, uh, disdain for shutting down. I mean, because those German power plants are phenomenal. I mean, they are as as you would say, uh, industrial cathedrals of clean energy. I mean, they’re very safe, immaculately operated by the Germans. And I went over and, um, I asked my wife if she wanted to go with me, and she’s like, no, uh, I’d rather stay here. So I took my mom, and my mom loved to travel. And so since we’re over there, I said, hey, mom, you know what I’d really like to do is I’d like to go meet Irina in person. And I said, mom, have you ever been to Bulgaria? She said, no, I’ll go to Bulgaria with you. So we we, uh, flew to Sofia, um, after the, uh, after being in Berlin and drove over to see Irina. And she is such a delight. She brought her daughter to lunch, and she’s, I don’t know, about ten years old and has the intellect of a 30 year old. And she spoke English immaculately. We had a great adult conversation. And the amazing thing is, you know, Irina went to Cambridge and I.
Stuart Turley [00:54:57] I think that I taught her every month for the last two years. And I love our, our discussions and our monthly podcast series.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:55:06] She, uh, it was amazing though. She said, I have never met an American before. She grew up in Bulgaria. She went to Cambridge but apparently only met British people. And she said that when my mom and I came to visit her, she said, you are the first Americans I’ve ever met in person. I’ve worked for American companies. I wrote for, you know, uh oh, like jazz magazines. I but I’ve never actually met an American. So Irina, I was give a shout out to her. She does some of the best writing. And if I want to, if I want to learn something and be humored at the same time, that’s who I’m going to pick up.
Stuart Turley [00:55:42] You know, um, I want to give you a little bit of a tidbit. Um, my content is shut down by Google. Google does not like me because I’m a humanitarian first. I’m energy agnostic to the point that it has to be sustainable. Can’t be print. Love and or love. Nuclear love. Oil and gas. Love all this stuff. And they hate me and I. They don’t like it because I speak the truth about renewable energy is not sustainable. And you know, and it’s not there. But I remember when I read her Substack, she reads her Substack. I want to let you know if you listen to her Substack, her article being read to by Irene, it is priceless. It turns that funny Substack into hilarious.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:56:42] That’s why I think she’s the best, because she is a very brilliant writer. She’s a great writer and it’s amazing. Her her grammar and her writing is better than anything I could ever do. Right? And but she’s so knowledgeable as well about the energy industry. I started reading her because growing up overseas, I always have kind of seeked a more international, um. Uh, narrative on energy. You know, when you’re here in the States and you read the Wall Street Journal, if you read the Financial Times in London, you get a different story. You know, you get different perspective. So I like to read the Financial Times. And so I was kind of seeking out some more European voices on the energy side to have a more balanced understanding of what is going on in Europe. And that’s how I found her originally. She’s so knowledgeable about energy and then to and her humor and her complete wittiness. I mean, I can read her all day long.
Stuart Turley [00:57:40] So, uh, I’ll tell you, I’m. I am just so blessed to be on, uh, Armando. Um, Cavanaugh, I just really want to give him a shout out as well, because I. He has invited me on, uh, to help fill in for IRA, uh, arena for the short term on their Monday morning live, uh, international. And I have a who with Tammy name is David Blackman. Love David Blackman.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:58:06] He is has more content than anybody I know, I don’t know. My wife says he must not be here. He he puts out more content than I can read.
Stuart Turley [00:58:15] Um, David and I and Ray Trevino are on, uh, the three podcasters walk into a bar. If we can ever have you on there, we will have you, uh, as our guest and have that. We just had Doctor Ed Ireland on there, and we want to do a three podcasters walk into a bar with me, you and David and, uh, Artie, that would be an absolute hoot.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:58:41] The. I don’t know if you saw David Blanton signed the nuclear declaration.
Stuart Turley [00:58:45] I did not see that yet. Uh, he is well.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:58:48] Early, doctor.
Stuart Turley [00:58:49] Uh, I would love to do a Vulcan mind meld on David Blackman. Uh, I would just go up and get all of his technical knowledge and everything else. Leave his personal stuff behind. Don’t want any of that. But I would love all the. He is such a great asset as well. He’s one of the great thought leaders out there.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:59:09] He definitely is. Yeah, he’s up there with Chris.
Stuart Turley [00:59:11] Well, I can’t wait to meet you in person. Just like Irina. Maybe, you know, we’ll we’ll have some serious fun and, uh, visit with you again.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:59:20] So I’m going to be in Tulsa this weekend. Maybe I should drive over to Tinkler and find you.
Stuart Turley [00:59:25] Uh, or I go up there, so we’ll have some fun. Thank you so much, Doug, for.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:59:30] That was great. There’s a lot of fun. And I know when I listen to your podcast, you guys have more fun on your podcast than anybody I know. So it’s good to talk about a serious subject, but not take yourself too seriously.
Stuart Turley [00:59:40] Humor is this is a key for you. Humor gets around the algorithms for being shut down.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:59:49] Yeah, you read it out. Let’s do it again.
Stuart Turley [00:59:52] Sounds great. Thanks.
Douglas C. Sandridge [00:59:53] Thanks,
