Ron Miller stops by and talks about the diversified energy approach. Calculations, physics, and the economy matter!
Ron and I had a blast visiting his research and the Colorado School of Mines. His big event with the school is extremely cool and helps show a dedication to getting the story about the importance of the balanced approach to energy.
Thank you Ron for stopping by! Let us know how the big event goes with the School of Mines!
Follow Ron on his LinkedIn HERE: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronmillerenergyindustryvaluecreator/
Highlights of the Podcast
2:47 – Ron Miller emphasizes the importance of accurate information and commits to educating through monthly LinkedIn articles for informed decision-making in the energy sector.
05:00 – How would you respond to somebody who’s saying wind and solar is the cheapest on the planet?
8:17 – Discusses the need for a diversified energy approach, highlighting economic challenges in renewables and the importance of considering costs for consumers.
12:49 – Raises concerns about environmental and economic aspects of renewable energy projects, questioning taxpayer subsidies for solar and wind.
16:17 – How are they the cost per energy? Can you describe how it’s not fairly being calculated out?
23:40 – Highlights CO2 emission reduction and cost savings for consumers with the transition from coal to natural gas since 2008.
27:27 – Discusses complexities of renewable energy investment, expressing optimism for solar and addressing grid balancing challenges.
32:28 – Emphasizes the need for reliable global grids and advocates for proactive solutions to ensure access to clean and consistent energy
36:39 – Advocates for open discussions and diverse perspectives in the energy sector to foster progress and innovation.
38:41 – Provides contact information for further engagement.
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– Get in Contact With The Show –
Stuart Turley [00:00:03] Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Energy News Me podcast. My name’s Stu Turley, President, CEO, Sandstone Group. You know, with COP 20 coming out right now, there’s a lot of information out there. I don’t know about you, but I have a real headache trying to figure out facts. Matter. Money. Lowest kilowatt per hour. What’s right? What’s wrong? I’ll tell you. Would I get to be able to reach out to a wonderful individual? His name’s Ron Miller, and he is in the energy space. He’s got a great, great program coming up in with the School of Mines. It is renewable energy, one on one, online and in person. But we’ve been talking about what is energy. Thank you, Ron, for stopping by the podcast.
Ron Miller [00:00:56] It’s great to be here. Still always enjoy your podcasts and learn a lot. Some interesting guest. I hope that tune continues today as well.
Stuart Turley [00:01:04] We thank you, Ron. I’ll tell you, the School of Minds is so cool. Let out by your house and golden.
Ron Miller [00:01:11] Yeah, it’s got an excellent reputation engineering work. Well, we’re glad they’re graduates. So what our national mining companies do, and they’re a great sponsor partner for this one day webinar, in-person class there at the Colorado School of Mines. So very happy.
Stuart Turley [00:01:32] There. I am a little bit biased about the School of Mines. Michael Tanner, my co-host, is graduated from there and then got his master’s also. So he is shy. Don’t tell anybody, but he’s a freak. I mean, he is one of the coolest freaks out there, understanding just about everything around energy between the geology of oil and gas and finances and the School of Mines should be just very proud of the the students that they do produce. So hats off for having them as a sponsor. But let’s backtrack just here a little bit. When we’re sitting here, we kind of wonder about the information. Education with facts matter. I don’t know about you, but when I was going to school, they hit us with a stick. And if the facts mattered, that seems like that’s going away. Well, when you got to this point of even having this webinar, how did you get to the point when you’re saying, what is the women are and what kind of material are you putting in there?
Ron Miller [00:02:47] Well, I’ll tell you, I have a little background. I’ve been in the energy sector my entire career, a long career, and very enjoyable for me. It is my passion, but I think a lot of the information that we’re getting from different multiple sources, it may not be fully factual. And sometimes the worst of information is a half truth. Not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth to to kind of quote a legal term that we’re all familiar with. And I think that’s the one thing I want an energy article on LinkedIn. Every month, about three quarters of them are picked up on Energy Center dot com. But I really believe in sharing information from my career from different oil and gas, renewables, mining, utilities to really help to educate. And I don’t mean that in a dismissive manner, but to help, you know, help people understand some of the dynamics and the fundamentals of energy so we can with any information that we can, we begin making not only better energy decisions, but things that take a lot of different criteria, meaning cost, reliability, you bet. And emissions, all those three areas in making that decision, not just one preferentially.
Stuart Turley [00:04:24] We know when we sit back and we kind of think there’s such a the diverse opinions on gas bad, fossil fuels bad but they’re 80% of the energy in the world. Nuclear is bad, but it provides the most stable baseload out there. Wind and solar have always been getting cheaper. How do you how do you talk or how do you tie up your normal discussion? Let’s say you’re on an elevator and somebody says, I like some cheap energy. I think wind and solar are great. How would you respond to somebody who’s saying wind and solar is the cheapest on the planet?
Ron Miller [00:05:07] Still, I tell you, there’s so many graphs that you can look at and they have facts. Yeah, but they show the levelized cost of energy and a number of entities have put those out in the old factual for the production cost of wind, solar, nuclear, gas, coal at all. And that’s really that that word production is a real key not knowing a word because if everyone would buy a utility scale 100 megawatt and up solar wind farm right where the electricity comes directly to their hands, yes, it is the cheapest. But getting a wind farm that’s out in the boonies, you have a lot of land. Same thing with solar, a lot less land into urban areas where the majority of the US population lives in involves transmission and reliability issues. When you look at production costs which are low for solar and wind, but they look at areas, countries and states that have high renewable energy penetration and you look at as renewable energy penetration increases, does the retail price that the consumer pays, whether it be at your home, your business or your industry, is it also dropped by 90% since 2000? The answer is emphatically no. It’s gone the other way because of high capital expenditures for transmission that’s not always use and 100% capacity factor. So I think that’s some of the the interesting things that we look at is, well, it’s great there at that site or if you have a new route, it’s directly going to the demand. No transmission, no capital costs. So maybe 100 feet of water, copper wire. Right. Lot different than 100 or 200 megawatt solar plant or wind farm out of Wyoming, Kansas, the eastern plains of Colorado, etc.. So I think that’s one element. People need to.
Stuart Turley [00:07:29] Bring up a lot of great points. Right. But let me ask this, because in New York, in California, are twice the expense of Texas is electrical to its consumers. Right. And so we spent over $3.5 billion in Texas to bring the wind farm energy to the west, eastern part of the state. But we have nuclear, we have natural gas. We have when we’re going to be the largest solar and it’s blending everything together. It seems to work. Okay. If you blend everything together and not permitting and on just one wind or solar only. Is that a fair statement or is it?
Ron Miller [00:08:17] Well, I think you bring up a really good point in that it’s not energy either or, unless we dramatically reduce our energy consumption and the last 300 years, it’s gone up. We we need all the above, you know, to be the multiple choices, all of the above. And I like to use the analogy for transmission. So you have a solar or wind farm connecting to the grid versus a natural gas plant that’s baseload, not a peaker baseload. Right. Build that transmission line and just for a minute, assume that the transmission line is like an airplane, commercial aircraft. Right. Aircraft one handles solar, wind, another one So services the gas plant. How many airlines make money from the capacity factor or the amount of passengers on the plane is about 95% versus the other plane that’s only got 25 to 35%, which is the renewables, because they’re intermittent solar variable in emerging markets, solar or wind under say. The reality is you go out and for 6 hours of the day, perhaps for solar, you’ve got a grossly underutilized asset that you’ve paid a lot of money to. And I think that’s the one thing when you look at it, spin as much money as you want. I don’t care if electricity is the 30, 50, $0.60 a kilowatt hour. If that’s the mindset and the building population is your idea of what’s right. That’s fine. We live in a republic. So but I think people will at some point get see prices increasing. And as much as they want to do the right thing, whatever, right, then to a lot of people may be right. I think the almighty wallet issue comes up and raises its ugly face a lot. And a lot of times we see that in reality. That ugly face of I don’t want to pay that much money. What’s the alternative? Right.
Stuart Turley [00:10:43] But, you know, and we sit back and we get to go. I did a bunch of studies. I’m trying to get to the bottom of, you know, the the when the life expectancy or the fiscal responsibility of a wind farm is zero without tax subsidies. I mean, from day one, they’re not fiscally responsible. And we’ve seen worse, Dad, lose billions. We’ve seen, you know, the wind farms not being bid on on the East Coast now. And so we’re we’re losing those kind of things. And then when you see the everybody says they’re carbon neutral and they’re free, they don’t become carbon neutral until ten years. And the maintenance numbers now around that I put together is after eight years with tax subsidies, the tax subsidies typically will run out into that. You range after that point. They are no longer fiscally capable of being sustained because the maintenance has kicked in at this time and they cannot be sustained without rates increasing to the ratepayers. So if now you’ve got a real problem, then recommendation recommendation, that’s a no issue way to talk given the nation and know I think the School of Mines would have a better way of teaching their students to talk about the reclamation of a wind farm is over $380,000 just to get rid of the concrete on pad. I mean, it’s just crazy when the wind farms are failing, you know, and they’re going to be walked away from. And that, to me, is the sad part about the ESG and the energy side is nobody’s pricing in the reclamation of the wind farms when you’re done after ten years.
Ron Miller [00:12:49] Yeah, it is big of a couple of really frightening points. One is the environmental the emissions of 1500 tons of concrete amount of steel, tons of steel. When you look at what’s the carbon footprint of those materials that are in plastics will be wind turbine blades. We will look at that. That’s it starts out like a capital project. You’re in the hole when you invest negative face time to get up to zero before you start getting much more of the direct that that you want. The other thing and part of this the real energy water one course I actually looked at to a solar plant in a wind farm a hundred megawatts. It would be investment tax credit for solar and the accelerated depreciation six years you depreciate 85% of the CapEx. It was similar for wind farm production tax credit, which is 2.6 cents per kilowatt hour, and they get the accelerated depreciation. Now, when you look at both those types of forms with the federal tax benefits and without in the first five years, your rate of return with what you had with all these been. This is twice the return. If it had no incentive. All right, so you’re without the tax credits, you’d be having a much lower rate of return already on that project. So it really makes it. Which brings up another point that I’ll just throw out. Well, gasoline to a fire. If silver and wind are the lowest cost production cost of energy. Why do we subsidize through tax reduction, tax credit, investment, tax credit, settlement depreciation, the lowest price usually when things are high price. But society disturbance, we need to do this. Let’s instead let’s get the economies of scale one gigawatt. We want ten gigawatts and right ten gigawatts, the price curve will be it’s the lowest price. What is the US taxpayer getting for their tax benefit extended to solar and wind developers? You know, it’s you know, if the tax law gives a benefit, it’s legal. But here’s the question At what point do we give money that is just making developers very wealthy, right? They may not have done it at that generous tax benefit that extended to them. And that’s that’s the question. That’s what the Bush tax like as a consumer paying my monthly bills. Yeah. I’ve got to ask those questions because I don’t think people are really looking at it and saying what a great value we’re getting for our dollar.
Stuart Turley [00:15:57] Okay. You brought up some excellent points. Well, we were chitchatting beforehand, and it’s kind of like when we sit back and look at the dollar, what’s the cost per dollar or the per kilowatt hour and who’s paying for it sitting there idle. And as you go through and you and you say, how are they the cost per energy? Can you describe how it’s not fairly being calculated out in there, if that makes sense?
Ron Miller [00:16:28] Well, I’ll tell you, I’ll give you one example. Sue is in 2022. California had 2.4 million megawatt hours curtailed because when the energy is available to be produced and mainly solar, but they’re saying, well, guess what, there’s not demand and electricity. You have to match solar or match supply and demand every second of every day of every every month. So when you don’t have demand, there’s no place for it to go unless you have energy storage facilities. So you have to tell that solar and wind developer turn your shoes off, but there’s no home for it. So the point is, for 2.4 million megawatt hours last year, you look at a taxpayer say, hey, to that, to burn that we gave you, it’s an accelerated depreciation over 20 years. That comes to about a $0.02 per kilowatt hour subsidy that federal taxpayers are paying. But guess what? We didn’t get 2.4 million megawatt hours. So we’re paying for something upfront. That we were getting as a consumer. And I think that’s that gets that cost of curtailment to the federal taxpayer is about $48 million last year for California alone. So once again, it’s it’s all about are you getting value? Who questions whether or not what solar wind is good about emissions. It is they they do they’re lower than coal not as good as yesteryear. But when you look at it, if you look at expenditure, think that plane before all the testing with passengers that pay the freight. Right. Well well we’re just going to curtail it. And I’m sorry you raise the money, federal taxpayer, but that’s just the way things are, right? I question whether that’s really a good model for our energy policy. And from a consumer and environmental standpoint.
Stuart Turley [00:18:55] It just really kind of explained it out a lot better than than I did. And when we sit back and take a look at the cost per kilowatt hour, you know, the only way to really get humanity elevated out of poverty is through energy. And Alex Epstein does a great job, you know, talking about work and the power and the you know, how much does it cost to get energy done so we don’t have to plant the crops or go walk two miles to get the water and those things. That is what energy should be used for, is elevating people out of poverty. So with the least impact on the environment, that to me is critical. But boy King, Coal is coming back big time. It’s because of the the world meeting all forms of energy. Boy. And China has got 400 coal plants on the map. So the school mines may be sending a bunch of guys over to join us.
Ron Miller [00:20:06] And it’s interesting, last decade of the decade of 2010, the United States and the EU retired 49,200 megawatts of coal power plants. Wow. The I think this next number will have been inflated. But in this decade, 2020, China is building 250,000 megawatts, five times of new coal. Yep. I think that number has gone north since that statistic was out there. So yeah, once again, it’s a little bit of an irony is that Q plant built in China is helping to build wind farms and solar plants and solar panels so that the West can have these things and feel good that we’re solving our climate crisis. All the while China is just churning out. And if there was a way in God’s green earth to say all the emissions from any country that is really just putting it out in the United States is the second largest emitter for it to stay in its own airspace. But I don’t think that’s the way the world the globe works with, whether I think their pollution will eventually be our pollution.
Stuart Turley [00:21:35] So here’s the you bring up a great I think we need to draw map and I get my eye crayon out here because I got about the way I think I’ve got about 15 different maps going on in my head right now.
Ron Miller [00:21:49] Yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:21:49] And the close over, you just nailed it. And that is we are buying through tax credits and the consumers are paying higher kilowatt per hour for solar and wind because the battery is right now, if you’re putting storage on a farm, I believe it’s $500 per kilowatt hour or something, then it needs to be down into that 50 range. Before that, it’s really affordable without subsidies. So you’re 500 versus that 50. We’re subsidizing all of this with trillions of dollars. We’re shipping the orders over to China for them to make the gear. The gear is being shipped over back to the United States for us to install to pay higher. And then they’re taking the profits and putting low cost coal plants in so they can pollute. Their pollution has gone up. Their CO2 emissions has gone up. 220% in the last few years. Ours has actually gone down 22% because of the elimination of the natural gas, the elimination of the coal plants, and turning those to natural gas. That was from the EIA last year. Said that was the only reason that we did was because of the transition to natural gas. This year the EIA put out another report and said it may have. They didn’t want to give natural gas any credit at all. So would you bring up a paradigm that we really need to have our graphics team work on? Because this little hamster wheel that we are now on is terrible.
Ron Miller [00:23:40] Every year you mentioned the natural gas. One of my articles of how natural gas fracking in the US has reduced emissions, CO2 emissions. It’s it’s out there on my LinkedIn site. I’ve spoken at the Association of Energy Engineers World Conferences. It’s been published in their journal. But the this this big miracle, say of technology and once again, I’ll be fair if there’s breakthroughs in solar or wind, geothermal or oil, gas, you have to recognize all of them. But the fact that since 2008, when you look at the emissions of the United States in the energy sector, exactly what you said. Replacing more polluting coal with not perfectly clean natural gas, but much more of an improvement, it’s been a dramatic shift in our emissions. But also, when you look at the the rate of electricity prices from 1990 to 2008, 2008 to 2022, if the pressure is very steep, 2.3% per year increase since 2008, a lot more natural gas is abundant. It’s cheaper. It’s a plateau, albeit about 2.5%. So since 2008, being the analytical engineering guy that I am, I calculated the amount of energy electricity cost savings for the American consumer is about 547 billion with a B. So not only are we lowering our emissions, the consumer is getting a less emitting cheaper electricity. So we do now partially renewable energy. You could say there’s a part. Yes. But when you look at the lion’s share of energy in the United States, 39.2% is natural gas. Wow. Big change for the wallets of American consumers in addition to the improvement in our emissions performance. So, you know, to absorb cost and emissions that I’ll look at, but are not just one in a vacuum. So you.
Stuart Turley [00:26:10] Bet. Well, now, boy, you emit wow, I’m sitting here going, Oh, that was good.
Ron Miller [00:26:19] I was like.
Stuart Turley [00:26:20] Man, I wish I thought of that, but I just pulled up your article here and I had read it before, but I don’t have links in the show notes. So it’s funny that you said that. No one that I’ve read. Yes. So well down on that article, I’ll make sure that that’s in the show notes.
Ron Miller [00:26:39] So just interject one thing. The trouble I see is even though this was going on. It’s like An Inconvenient Truth. You’ll never see that in the news broadcasts, even though it’s a lot of value, both emissions and dollars to the consumers. Why isn’t that fact on the news that we are acknowledging this achievement? I think it’s a bit but bias that they don’t say, oh, great deal on solar generation then coal plants now. Right. And to be even handed. Did you also know this fracking whichever your opinion it does have benefits to air.
Stuart Turley [00:27:27] So I love the article. I also think that solar has more the legs than wind. Wind is now falling apart and falling off of the scale because of the expense. I believe that leg, the solar stills got a lot more play for investors. Taking a look at where am I going to make my money? Because the energy investing space has been complicated. Ron, was Bill Gates coming out just recently and saying that old climate change is not going to kill us? Okay. And then you have BlackRock, Larry Fink, coming out and saying where our funds are okay to invest in oil and gas for ESG or ESG, investors are doing it. So you have two gigantic hypocrisy stories going on right here. And I still feel the solar is going to be easier to find investors in when they’re taking look getting their money back. I don’t know. What are your thoughts on because it’s tough to get the money back on on wind. It seems like it’s going to be easier on solar. I don’t have any data to say that. That’s a feeling that I have right now.
Ron Miller [00:28:51] Yeah, I think the I would agree with you. Solar is, I guess, less moving parts, even though you have the single axis tracking it tracks from east to west to catch the early morning sun is facing east in the afternoon. It’s facing west. But as far as moving parts, it’s not like a wind turbine. That’s the blades turn away after 300 feet or more of of the ground. I think the only concern I see, I’ll say problem concern with solar is look at the California dot curve where they have this rush of solar from 8 a.m. until 4 p.m.. In real terms, obviously different times of the year, it’s a little bit different, but it’s a huge influx of solar energy to the grid, which satisfies the demand at 8 to 4. Right. But like most Americans, we have a line from 4 p.m. to 8 a.m. that requires energy, especially if you’re a cold climate like the Dakotas or.
Stuart Turley [00:29:59] For trying to charge your TV.
Ron Miller [00:30:02] Yeah. Yes. So I think that that part, that dynamic of how do you address this. One of the topics in my my webinars, the darker know what it does what it doesn’t do. Is this a concern? Should we be looking to find alternatives that we can accept low emissions energy but not say, well, it’s 5:00. Go build a fire in the backyard to cook a meal tonight because people have electricity. That’s that’s going to be a concern I think people need to be aware of. And that’s that’s part of the reason for this course is to make make sure people are aware of all the facts that may interfere with their lifestyle in the future. So.
Stuart Turley [00:30:50] Hey. Thanks, Mr. Saxon. Physics. Yes.
Ron Miller [00:30:55] Sir.
Stuart Turley [00:30:57] You know, I can’t wait to hear more about this thing that you have the renewable energy one on one. There’s going to be a big deal. And I really want to help get the word out on this, because your story needs to get out there and sit back and evaluate the right numbers. I mean, it’s just we all we want all types of energy. I just don’t want to print money. Fiscally, the world cannot print anymore. I just think that it’s a mistake. And we need to get the lowest cost kilowatt per hour to everyone on the planet, even through the disproportionately impacted communities, because energy poverty is real. And it just breaks my heart that the financial systems are not geared up to deliver the lower cost kilowatt per hour. You got to look at the whole grid. And I’ll tell you what, I would not want to be a balancing authority. Can you imagine sitting there with those guys going, I need 500 watts over here. I need to run it once and I need you to spin up. I need you to stand down. And I guarantee I’d be like, in the corner drinking rather than having to fire up and tell them, Hey, you’re on standby over here. You know, that’s a tough job balancing the grid. It’s not just, oh, plug it into the wall and think that you’re going to have energy come out. There’s a machine behind that.
Ron Miller [00:32:28] I tell you, Stuart, I used to work open, got all West African mining in there. And they have you know, they used to have outages they called load shedding where you you’re your facility is next for energy one day out of every three sometimes you know that one day might be. And it’s really makes you think we live in a privileged society in the US. When I turn the switch on, I don’t have to think, what is the light going to come on? Is the pump going to work? Is the air conditioner? You know, we have very good reliability, but over other countries and Ghana has improved dramatically since those times. That’s a real concern. And the problem that they do with not working, that’s not even 1% renewables is the alternative for it. Not working is in 17 seconds, the emergency diesel engine set brakes on. But those lucky people at a hotel or business that they have it after that, they’re coming in. It’s real polluting. They’re getting from a better natural gas, solar, wind from the grid. So having a grid that works that’s reliable is really better in the for the overall energy slash emissions slash cost equation. We just got to get the word out that we don’t want all these other gensets at people’s homes. Wherever you live in the world, it’s not real efficient and it’s not real, not real green. It really isn’t, you know.
Stuart Turley [00:34:11] Yeah, I’ve got multiple places and generators at each and because you have to be able to survive the if he has this in closing up here in just in a few minutes the FARC just put out and said we’re going to have a lot of blackouts, potentially a lot of blackouts now because of the grid’s problems in and everything else. Well, did you see that report come out?
Ron Miller [00:34:37] I have light. And I’ll tell you, I obviously, we’re working on this this webinar almost my slide deck. But I tell you, I think the world and I’m not knocking renewables. I think with any situation you solve what can make it work and you, you mitigate the risk rather than just accept it. You know, I don’t like blackouts. What do we do? It would put in more hydro pumped storage, more battery, more whatever loadshedding term of use rates, whatever you would have to do. But I think not having power that we’re in electricity in our country, we have been so spoiled by not only cheap electricity but reliable electricity. And I don’t think people want to go back to where we were in the 1920s or earlier where it was not that reliable or we had people do not have access. So it gives me a social issue too. Like you’re saying, no access, yellow wood. So country is being done for it. Exactly. Not very healthy for your your respiratory system at all. So. No. Anyway, one answer to a short question is do.
Stuart Turley [00:35:57] These, unfortunately, between the geopolitical, the financial, in the energy types, everybody here, it seems like. Well, and everybody’s siloed into their little specialty. And and so it’s kind of nice to have the broader discussions because it is fiscal, it is geopolitical, it is farming. I mean, it is when you start putting all this stuff together, the farmers use more energy than just about anybody else. But if they do all of this than they do, I mean, it’s a head game. I mean, this is a big chess match just to get the world out of poverty.
Ron Miller [00:36:39] So I think one problem that we have, it’s like your your keyword is siloed. And I think more of what we need is a more open discussion, right? Both openness to different ideas to calibrate. I use a quote in all of my articles that I don’t have in front of me, but basically it says it’s better to have low resolution with a lot of discussion rather than having a resolution that has no discussion because you’re not letting your peer challenge you to say, Hey, Ron, I disagree with this area, brings your proof. I don’t see it this way. I found my professional life, you know, letting a colleague look at a presentation, they can kind of stress test it and say, Hey, I think it’s weak. We’re not doing that in a lot of areas with our energy strategy. We’re not putting dissenting votes, dissenting opinions, dissenting scientific analysis come into the fray and say, hey, I think there’s a better product out there. Right? We have to find ways to be open. Reminds you at all. You can probably if you want to go for go alone. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, find a partner. And we’re not doing the partnering side of the coin to your point about getting more people aware. Allow dissenting votes, essentially conversations. That’s the only way we progress as a society on anything medicine, engineering, energy, education at all. So.
Stuart Turley [00:38:33] Well, no. Ron, how do people find you? I’m going to have your LinkedIn account in the show notes. And so is there anything else that people need to know about you or how to get a hold of you.
Ron Miller [00:38:47] If they want to link you? It’s warm weather. Karma Capital P. Capital. Aim for professional engineer and you’ll find me. And I would love to have people a in look at my energy articles. I’m always open for comment. That’s one thing I’ve learned. One of the things I present not only to mining and energy conferences, but any chapters in universities. And some of the very best questions I’ve had had been from students that, as I say, did go by 30 years in corporate America. Oh, this is the way you have to think. And they’re very, very sharp. But they’re also, you know, how do you deal with this? Well, no one’s ever asked that question. That’s the kind of question that you want to get. If you’re looking for continuous improvement. Yep. But yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:39:49] I loved having you on and I love your attitude. Education and open conversation is the most critical way to get poverty solved in the world.
Ron Miller [00:40:02] Yes.
Stuart Turley [00:40:03] It’s I think it’s the only way we’re going to sleep. But if not, I’m going to sign up for airlines flight to Mars. I think that I’ll be a hoot. I’ll tell you. Yeah.
Ron Miller [00:40:15] Yeah. Well, thank.
Stuart Turley [00:40:16] You very much, Ron. And all your contact info will be in the show notes. And for the energy news me team, my name, Stu Turley.
